Kirstin Burke:
If you have looked at the headlines at all in the last couple months, you cannot miss the attacks, the breaches, the hacks, the just all of the different things that are out there. Just last night I saw one, there’s some AI hack going on right now. And we really felt that for this TECH Talk, it would be appropriate and, maybe feels unusual, that we talked to you about preparing to be hacked. A lot of folks are saying, we’re going to help you avoid it, we’re going to help avoid this.
But at the end of the day, you are likely to be hacked. Any organization out there is likely to be hacked. And so we really wanted to kind of turn the conversation around a little bit and say, how do you prepare to be hacked, and what does that look like? And so we’re going to spend the next 20, 30 minutes talking about that. And I think the big picture, I think folks used to implement cybersecurity almost like an insurance policy. Like with your car, right, just in the off chance that someone dings me in a parking lot or tree falls on my car, just in the off chance I’ve got insurance. And I think we are at a point we passed a long time ago where that’s not the case. That preparing a cyber strategy and a cyber plan should not at all be thought about as insurance.
Shahin Pirooz:
100%. It’s you know, just to address really quickly that notion of you are most likely going to be hacked. We see that if you’re standing in a room with 15 peer owners of companies, so you’re talking to your peer group. pick whatever peer group you’re in. There’s 15 of you having a conversation. Split the room in half, and half of those people have been attacked. Take that seven people and five out of those people have been compromised. There’s been an attack in their environment, and they have been encrypted. Now take that group of people, and three of them have been hit more than one time.
So in a room of 15 people, three of your peers have not only been encrypted, but they’ve been hit more than one time, and five of them have been encrypted. That’s one third of the people you know in a peer group that have been hit. And the odds of that being you is pretty high.
So when you take those things into account, it’s we used to think about cybersecurity in the context of we’re doing these things to prevent attacks. It’s an insurance policy. We’re investing in this side of the business and this technology so that we can lay in bed at night comfortably asleep, that we’re not going to get hacked. Those days are gone, right? It’s investing in those tools or table stakes at this point.
You have to make those investments. You have to invest in training your people, building a SOC, staffing it, having the right tools for them to be able to collect telemetry, threat feeds, all that, and identify bad actors in your network. Because bad actors sit in a network for 200 days and they learn in those 200 days how to take advantage of your environment, what your crown jewels are in the context of the data that you have in your environment, how to extract it to have you have pain, so that you pay the ransom. And the ransoms used to be 100, $200,000. Now on average, the ransoms are $3 million. So it’s, it’s no longer an insurance policy. It is a way of doing business.
You have got to do security right, just like back in the day, we used to say, you have got to do IT right. But investing, you know, the core versus context dialogues back then were investing in IT and doing the best IT on the planet doesn’t give you a huge differentiator from the guys next to you that are doing IT right. So level the playing field, make sure everybody’s doing IT right. Security is somewhat the same. The problem is that the guys next to you aren’t doing it any better than you. And it’s because the market is really confusing the ecosystem.
Kirstin Burke:
Well, that’s a great segue because what we promoted this as is kind of a live planning session. And, you know, if you’re an organization, if you’re a security leader, if you’re a business leader, what’s the process that you should think through to plan to be attacked?
And as we discussed this for our show, the place to start is really what framework are you using? So depending on the business you’re in, depending on the regulations you have there are different frameworks or different models that you might want to use as guidance.
Shahin Pirooz:
Exactly. I have a lot of companies I’ve talked to over the years and advise, and their response to me is we’re not regulated. There’s no government or industry regulating body that is regulating us. So we don’t need any of these crazy controls from NIST, CIS, you pick it.
That is the furthest thing from the truth, because if you don’t have a framework to build your security practice around, you don’t have a foundation for which to assess risk. So if you don’t have a foundation from which to assess risk, you don’t know what risk you have. If you don’t know what risk you have, you can’t make the decision as an executive team to close those gaps and address that risk or accept it. And accept it might mean, I know there’s a chance this thing will get compromised, get broken, whatever, but I accept that risk because the cost to fix it is more than the impact.
So you can’t make those business decisions unless you understand what the risk is to begin with. You can’t understand what the risk is without the risk assessment. You can’t do the risk assessment unless you’re assessing it against something. Hence, come in the control sets.
So, a popular one for mid to large enterprise is the NIST cybersecurity framework, or shortened to CSF. CSF is a great framework. You don’t have to use all the parts of CSF. NIST has just revived it and released 2.0 of the NIST CSF framework. It is the foundation for which many risk assessors use to assess risk for a company when they come in. So if that’s the control set you’re using, it makes those processes faster.
The other thing that small businesses typically go after is the CIS framework, which most commonly was known for its top 20, but that moniker is kind of have gone away. There’s a smaller set of common standard controls that the Center for Internet Security, Information Security put together for small companies to be able to say, I’ve got the basics covered.
So regardless of whether you’re large or small, if NIST CSF which can be 200 controls, is too heavy, you can look at a smaller framework that fits your life, like CIS. But pick a framework, build your security practice around it or your compliance.
We’ve kind of gotten this it’s kind of become, like, brandized, kind of like Kleenex became the definition of what toilet paper or tissue paper is, and GRC has become that for us in the industry. So GRC is not a tool, it’s not a technology, it’s a concept. It is another framework, and it stands for governance, risk and compliance. So what governs you? What control set are you using? And it could be an industry control set. It could be a government control set. So examples are PCI or HIPAA or GDPR or you name it. So whatever, whatever control set, or if you’re public SOX, Sarbanes-Oxley. But that control set is what governs you.
Risk, the R in GRC, is assess your risk against that control set. What are my gaps? What happens if something goes wrong? And compliance is let’s do the things we need to, to close those gaps and comply with the governance. So GRC is a methodology, it’s an approach to solving the gaps that we all have. And however, again, the market has confused us in saying that GRC is a tool. And if you just buy our tool, you have governance risk and compliance, which is the farthest thing from the truth, because you have to start with who’s governing you, under what controls, what’s the risks associated with, not the fact that you don’t meet those controls.
And then how do you comply with those controls. And that could be 100% internal. It doesn’t have to be government or industry based regulation. You can decide, we’re going to use CIS as our framework and that’s going to be our governance, our internal governance. Build a governance committee internally.
Kirstin Burke:
Well, I think, quite simply stated, it’s what does good look like and how do we stack up against good? And so you just have to figure out what that framework is that best represents your business, your market, your customer expectations. Something you said that was really interesting to me, you talked about NIST, and they just came out with their 2.0 update. These frameworks don’t stay set in stone. So if and when you have selected your framework, the other thing that you need to be aware of is understanding where and when and how that framework is changing, and what those implications are to your security plan, your security posture, your security investments.
Shahin Pirooz:
I’ll give you a perfect example. A good friend of mine has invested in Ring cameras all around his house. And those Ring cameras all connect to his network, his wireless network. They connect to his system in house so he can manage them. He gets alerts, lights come on. All kinds of things happen when a raccoon runs by and tries to steal a donut. But the reality is we were having a glass of whiskey, for those of you who know me, I do that often, but we were having a glass of whiskey and a cigar.
And the conversation shifted to, why is that light not coming on? I can’t turn it on from my tool. I can’t do this. And it was literally that.
Think of the control set he’s done to protect his house is these cameras. And one of the cameras was no longer connected to wifi, so it was not getting control, it was not connected to his network anymore. And he said, I don’t understand why. The wifi distributor is right next to it, and it’s green and the light is green. I don’t understand why.
And what I said is, when’s the last time you checked it? And that’s the conversation we’re having. That’s exactly it. These control sets are not a set it and forget it. You can’t just install the cameras and walk away and hope everything’s good, and it’s going to do everything it has to.
You can’t just install the tools. You can’t just say, this is the framework we’re going to use, and do a risk assessment once. It’s a constant dipstick, you have to do it annually, you have to do a risk assessment annually, you have to do your penetration testing annually, and be able to understand, where was I? How many gaps did I have last year? How many of those have I closed? And are there any new gaps that have come? Because, A, we decided to put a new application and change from one ERP platform to another. B, we decided to do our payment processing outside, so now we have an outside processor integrating with our system. C, we decided we’re going to shut down all of our data centers and move to AWS.
All those major changes are going to have impact in your control set. What controls apply, how they apply, and how you assess risk against them, and how you comply with the governance associated with it. So it’s never a set it and forget it when it comes to security, governance, risk, or compliance.
And to me, you and I used to have this big dialogue, trying to educate the world on compliance and security. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? And the reality is they feed off of each other and you have to continuously improve them.
So I had a conversation with another large organization that made, you know, a fairly large investment in security, and we were coming in to help them reevaluate where they’re at and why they have gaps and risk now, since they made such a large investment. And that investment was five years ago, and none of those tools are effective anymore. They’re, they’re all like, you know, in a stack of ten technologies in the same category. They’re at the middle in terms of efficacy or the bottom.
So when you’re having that kind of dialogue with someone and they say, but I spent X million dollars to set this up, it doesn’t matter if you’re not continuously refreshing it. There is a three to four year refresh cycle that you have to do, not just with hardware, but with software, with technology. And so that’s the value of the service that we bring to the table, which is a continuously improving and evolving platform as opposed to a fixed point in time. This is the thing right now.
Kirstin Burke:
So from the framework perspective what I’ve heard takeaways for me would be, you know, it’s not just about the bad guys that are coming in. Like, you’re building this framework to defend against the bad guys. You’re building this framework to test the efficacy of the investments you’ve already made. You’ve built this framework because your business is constantly changing. So it’s not even about the bad guys, but it’s like what business changes, what technology changes are you making that need to be checked up against this framework? So this is just this dynamic environment that has all of these inputs and outputs that you just have to make sure you’re paying attention to.
Shahin Pirooz:
Yes.
Kirstin Burke:
Moving over to our next part of the planning. So we’ve got the framework, think about what good looks like, and be able to continuously inspect it. If we take a look now at kind of the threat landscape, right? And some of you folks out there there’s this dialogue out there talking about boom, right? The industry talks about the left of boom, the right of boom. Boom is the events, boom is the attack that happens.
Shahin Pirooz:
The execution.
Kirstin Burke:
The execution of attack.
We’re starting to hear the industry talk a lot about boom, and then what happens to the right of boom and what happens to the left of boom. So if we think about what this landscape looks like. So you’ve got your framework now you’re looking at, well, what do I have to defend? and how do I defend it? Can you talk a little bit just about that landscape?
Shahin Pirooz:
Yeah. The challenge is that again, this is, you know, I bash our industry a lot. The industry is confusing this topic once again. They’re trying to focus and shift everybody’s focus to the right of boom. By everybody, I mean the consumer, the customer, because the security industry feels that they are addressing the left side of boom. And the reality is it’s not a split thing.
There’s stuff that has to happen on both sides of boom, and there has to be functionality on both sides of boom to make it happen. Otherwise, it’s not going to be an integrated response to something that happens. So Kirstin and I were joking last week, and we started talking about boom happens, and the reality is boom happens. We just talked about that.
Three of your 15 peers have had boom happen more than once.
So the reality is it’s going to happen. You know, knock on wood, it never happens to you, but the likelihood is it will. And so, what do you need to do to be prepared for boom happening? That’s the topic of our conversation today. So in order to have the left of boom covered, I’m gonna do it this way. So you guys look at the left.
In order to have the left of boom covered you have to have everything we just talked about in play. You have to understand what your governance is, whether it’s internal or regulatory, from an industry or a government agency. Implement the risk assessment against that governance, comply with that governance, and that sets your standard for what are the controls you’re going to put in place to protect your environment. So that’s the starting point. But you can’t stop there.
Now you have to be able to respond when boom happens. So response is a lot of different things. Everybody, when we think about response, thinks incident response. And incident response is definitely a part of the response, the right side of boom.
But the other part that not everybody puts a lot of energy into, even today, is the disaster recovery and business continuity. So you need to go outside of the security realm and think about if our payroll system is encrypted, how do we recover from that? What is our response plan? Who jumps in and does what, in what order? In order for us to get back to functionality.
If, for example, you’re a union shop, you have 48 hours to recover from that payroll system being down, or you start owing the union some money, there’s fees that come from that. So that’s huge. That’s a big impact. Not only are your systems down and you’re probably not being able to generate revenue because of it, but now you’re getting fees built up because you’re unable to do payroll and track people’s time. So for each system in a traditional, now, this goes back to, we’ve been talking about business continuity and disaster recovery for 30 years. Nothing’s changed.
You still need to do an assessment internally to determine what are the key systems in the company, and this ties back to that risk assessment. What are the key systems in the company? How do you take those key systems and identify what pain threshold you have against them? How long can they be down? How much data can I afford to lose? And what happens if it doesn’t come back up?
Those are the three questions we ask every time when we’re doing a business continuity dialogue and doing an assessment of somebody’s state in regards to resilience. We call it a resiliency workshop. And that resiliency workshop is all about understanding, let’s define the key applications in the environment. Who are the stakeholders for those applications? What is the pain threshold associated with those applications? And then, therefore, let’s start building recovery plans associated with meeting those thresholds. Which include tools and technology to meet those recovery objectives.
So when we talk about right and left of boom, there is no silver bullet on either side of it. It takes work, it takes effort. It’s not exhaustive. It is achievable, and it is achievable quickly. But you still have to understand the moving parts.
Here’s my biggest frustration, I had a conversation with someone and they said, we have nothing on-prem, we’re all SaaS applications. We don’t have to worry about right of boom.
And I said, do you feel that OneDrive and SharePoint can’t be encrypted? They said, well, yeah, that’s Microsoft’s problem. I can’t tell you how many incident responses we’ve done where OneDrive and SharePoint have been encrypted and they didn’t have SaaS backup.
And when you go back to Microsoft and say, I need to restore, they will restore SharePoint from the last backup, which can be a month old. Are you willing to lose a month’s worth of data? I’m not. I can’t run my business that way.
Kirstin Burke:
When we were talking about this whole left and right of boom you summarized it in a really cool way. We looked at left of boom, I think you described it as peacekeeping. And we looked at the right of boom, and we said, well, these are the first responders.
So on the left, what do you do? What are the things that you stand up? What are the processes you employ to try to keep the peace or to try to protect yourself preventatively to try to reduce the threat vectors as much as possible in the event something happens.
And then the right of boom is the first responders. You know, how do you get there quickly? How do you triage the situation?
Shahin Pirooz:
The building’s on fire. Somebody’s got to go in and pull the people out and pull your tools out. So, agree, and the peacekeeping force is a great analogy. It’s, you’re building the fort. So you’re building the fort so that you can’t catch on fire. But when you do catch on fire, you need to have the plan for how, how do the first responders get in and how do your internal first responders start reacting so that you can recover as quickly as possible and reduce loss.
Kirstin Burke:
So we’ve talked about frameworks, we’ve talked about kind of the threat landscape and what to think about. You mentioned as you were talking about this, multiple vectors. So I think if you kind of listen to industry speak, you hear people talk a lot about endpoints. We know that email is very susceptible, right? End users, you know, those of us who are on the tablets and the phones and everything, that we are the weakest link. But we are not, those aren’t the only vectors. So as the last part of this, someone thinks about their plan, can you talk about within their organization, what are those vectors that we should be thinking about protecting?
Shahin Pirooz:
Yeah first I’m going to do my, I’m going to get on my soapbox again and complain about the industry.
Kirstin Burke:
We need to get you a soapbox.
Shahin Pirooz:
I totally need a soapbox. I feel again, as an industry, the security industry is doing a massive disservice to the consumer. And the main issue I have is I’ve seen peers of mine get up and speak in front of conference fulls of people and say, you don’t really need anything but an EDR tool and a SIEM and a company like us who’s a SOC as a service, and you’re golden. That’s all you need to be secure. That’ll cover your left and right.
There can be nothing, nothing farther from the truth. And EDR or MDR or XDR does nothing more, and I say XDR because most XDR fits into what I’m describing, our XDR is a little different, and I’ll talk about that, but all of those detection response tools in the market today are designed at the endpoint focus. They respond at the endpoint. They can do extended detection, they’ll collect telemetry from other sources, but their response is only at the endpoint.
So the issue is attacks aren’t starting at the endpoint. Attacks are starting in email, and 93% of all attacks are coming from that vector. Attacks, then, those 93% of things, if one of them drops 80% of malware needs DNS to function. So that one that dropped needs to be able to talk home to its command and control server. And if it can’t talk home, then you’ve stopped it in its tracks. Then EDR can look to see if there’s behavior, it’s connecting to something bad, and stop it if DNS didn’t stop it.
So it’s really the third or fourth vector, there’s a fifth vector, I mean there’s a third vector that fits between DNS and endpoint, which we’re just starting to add to our XDR stack, which is identity. Because identity is now the new threat landscape, it is becoming one of the largest vectors. People are doing phishing to get identity. They are landing inside of a network to get identity. So everything wraps around this concept of identity as a way to elevate privilege, get domain access, and be able to spread.
So we’ve got email as a first vector. DNS is the second vector, identity is the third vector, endpoint as the fourth vector, meaning you have to have solid endpoint security. So all these EDR, XDR, MDR players are important, I’m not saying don’t use them, but please for the love of God, don’t make that your only thing. And the last vector is network. How do you stop something from spreading once it lands? Because the EDR is not always going to work. If it did, we wouldn’t have three of your peers encrypted more than once.
Those five layers of defense are so critical to put your security stack in, addressing all five layers. But you need to be able to do not just detection in all five layers, you need to be able to do response in all five layers. And there’s only one company that does detection and response in all five layers.
Kirstin Burke:
Drum roll.
Shahin Pirooz:
Drop mic.
Kirstin Burke:
Well I think that’s interesting because we’ll go into a little bit to DataEndure and our solution, but I think it’s very easy for a company maybe that’s smaller or that’s less mature to maybe assume something like EDR is that’s all I need. Or you know, to really look at this and go, yeah, I hear you, I hear you, but I only have 50 employees or I’m not in the healthcare industry or What size, where is the threshold for the size of company that needs to think about layers?
Shahin Pirooz:
One person. So, the reality is, it seems when we start talking about you need to have detection and response across all these layers. The immediate reaction goes, oh my God, how many tools is that? What’s the stack?
And one of my biggest frustrations in the industry is that my peers are saying, if you’re putting energy into building an enterprise stack for security, you’re taking your eye off the ball and you should be putting your energy into the right side of boom. There’s a lot of fact in that statement, in that you should be looking at the right side of the boom. Make sure your business continuity and disaster recovery and incident response is sorted out. But if on the other hand, you’re listening to that same individual and saying, all I need is an EDR and a SIEM, and not an enterprise stack, you’ve left yourself so open to attack and now your right side of boom is going to get exercised an awful lot.
So how do you reduce the number of times you have to pull the ripcord on the right side of the boom? And again, the short answer to the question is it doesn’t matter how big or how small you are. A single consultant owned company, sole proprietor has Office 365 or Google collaboration. So they’ve got cloud shares, they’ve got email, they’ve got a workstation that sits on the Internet somewhere, probably working out of Starbucks or their home office, or maybe they even have an office location, but they don’t have major enterprise security at the network or anything.
So they’re on the public Internet for all intents and services. They don’t have an issue of lateral movement unless you take into account their kids and wife computers at home or spouses rather. But they still need that protection at the gateway, at email, at phishing perspective at email. So you need that email detection response. They still are going to have something land on their machine that’s going to use DNS to call home. So they need that DNS protection. They still are going to have something that lands on their machine and EDR needs to detect behaviors and stop it. And their network might be their home network where they’re going to connect to their home machine that has all their financials and everything on it and grab that stuff.
So it doesn’t matter what size organization you are, there are some core critical fees that you have to have in place to protect your environment. And I love, I love the tools that are in the market for consumers. They do great jobs, but again, they’re endpoint focused only, and they’re trying so hard to add browser protections and things like that to try to expand the capability, but it’s not solving the problem, it’s just trying to add another layer of protection on top of just endpoint. But it’s all still endpoint focused.
And when you’re a company of one, you lean towards, all I need is endpoint because all I got is an endpoint. Everything else is in the cloud. None of those endpoint solutions that you’re buying as a consumer are going to be able to protect you in your Office 365, Google suite, if you’re using Salesforce or any of the other platforms that are SaaS based, none of those solutions are going to protect those.
Kirstin Burke:
Well, and I think the thing to think about too no matter what size business you are, is you’re thinking about yourself and your business. Right? What do I need? Do I need this protection? Whatever. But what about your clients or your customers?
So you could be a very small organization and maybe just doing things locally, you could be a very small, you know, organization contracting to very significant businesses. And so it’s not just about the risk that you have, but if something happens to you and then gets propagated out to somebody else, that can ruin your business.
So I think back to the risk assessment, you know, even as a small business, you know, what framework do you use to think about, you know, what risks am I willing to take on what am I not? What systems do I use? So it kind of is this circular conversation, and the reason why we’re having this conversation, which is no matter what size you are, you know, spend that time thinking about it, spend that time standing up that model of what good looks like, and then, you know, align your practices and policies towards that.
Shahin Pirooz:
Yeah, 100%.
I’ll give you another story, perfect example. A friend who’s a sole proprietor of a company was hit with a business email compromise solution where one of his vendors sent a note saying, we changed the account that you need to deposit and you haven’t paid us yet. And they had basically done man in the middle and identified an email that was asking for money. And they immediately followed up with a fake email that looked just like the domain of the vendor, and gave them a new account number, said, we changed our accounting system.
This poor sole proprietor lost $100,000. No way to get it back, done and gone. And that is something that an endpoint security tool will never catch and never protect you against. You need to have advanced email security, advanced phishing protection, identity security and DNS security to protect against that.
Kirstin Burke:
So we can’t leave you all with all of the problems without a very short conversation about our solution to this. I know we’re close to time, but let’s just spend, I don’t know, 60 seconds, right? I mean, we’ve talked about all of this. There are a lot of tools, there are a lot of requirements, and one of the things DataEndure has really prioritized is how can we simplify this process for people? How can we make it affordable, how can we make it so that it is a service people consume versus something that they have to investigate, test, build, manage, staff.
And so really our value proposition is we can help you get there quickly, we can help you get there securely, and we can help you get their cost effectively. How would you like to wrap up quickly to just share kind of how we address this market challenge?
Shahin Pirooz:
Yeah. Growing out of, growing out of frustration, we came to the conclusion we had to do something entirely different. And we effectively built an enterprise security stack that is consumable one node at a time, so that that sole proprietor can get protection, so that an enterprise of 30,000 seats can get protection without having to make the investments in time, energy, resources, building out the SOC, finding tools, testing them, integrating them, correlating information from them.
So we built out this composable stack that is really designed to forever be green. It’s continuously improving, it’s continuously evolving with functionality. Specifically to address this problem that XDR means more than endpoint detection and response. So this stack is designed, our XDR solution is designed to do detection and response in email, DNS, we’re about to release identity, endpoint, and network, all covered by a 24 by 7 security operations team that is not just waiting for AI alarms to pop to do something, they’re doing threat hunting, they’re actively looking for threats. And we reduce the number, the amount of time that that bad actor sits in a network from 200 days down to six minutes.
So our best times are three minutes in identifying a bad actor, our worst times are six days. So significantly better than 200 days. And our goal is to have that six minute, that’s our six minute mark is what we try to benchmark. It’s, you know, it’s, the logic is six months to six minutes is the way we built the model. And the idea is we have to let you know there’s something going on in your network. And to the degree we can respond to it and stop that from spreading, we will. But sometimes it requires other interactions with the systems we don’t control.
So visibility and timing of visibility and reducing dwell time are the keys to preventing having to pull the rip cord on the right of boom.
Kirstin Burke:
So, to wrap up, you mentioned a couple things, and I would like to offer one other thing. Framework model, pick what good looks like, understand the threat landscape, and then make sure that you’ve got multi vector, multi layered protection. If this is something that you’re not sure where you stand, how you stack up, if you’re not sure if you’re good or not if you’re more curious about, hey, I’m not sure I’ve got all the layers protected. We have a couple different ways we can help you.
Shahin mentioned a resiliency workshop. If you kind of want to take a bigger picture, look at your environment and really kind of understand you know, the big picture, that’s something that DataEndure can do for you.
We have a security health check that is complimentary that we can offer you to really give you some quick insights into red, yellow, green, you know, is there anything here that looks like an emergency?
We also have an economic roadmap. So we know that everybody has invested in something, right? You can’t be operating your business in today’s economy without not having spent something in security. Is it enough? Is it not? Are you getting ready to make changes? We can help you identify what you’ve spent, the tools that you have, gaps that you may have, and really help you map out what investments make the most sense over time.
We’ve really tried to build different consultative tools, really, almost like a public service. We really, really care about helping organizations beat out the bad guy. I mean, that’s what we’re all about. So please reach out to us if there’s anything in what we’ve shared that’s interesting or even if you have questions. We’d love to talk to you. So with that, thank you, Shahin.
Shahin Pirooz:
Thank you.
Kirstin Burke:
Always a wealth of information. And thank you all for joining us, and we will see you next month.